Talk:Commander Shepard
Was Shepard born on April the 11th or the 4th of November? In Canada, all three date formats are used in various contexts. I've never seen the date written in just numbers except for driver's licenses, which use year-month-day; the month is usually written either in full or its abbreviated. Anyone else come to the conclusion that Bioware is just screwing with us Yanks and Brits? - Pyro721 04:06, August 23, 2010 (UTC) :Actually, using just numbers to represent the date is very common practice amongst militaries worldwide, and last I heard, Shepard was in one of those! :P I use that format on a daily basis. I would also refer you to a more extensive discussion of that topic on this very talk page- Talk:Commander Shepard#Sheps Birthday. SpartHawg948 04:09, August 23, 2010 (UTC) While discussing this on the social bioware network, I came across two reasons that would speak for April 11th being Shepard's birthday. One of it being the launch of Apollo 13 on April 11th, 1970. Alan Shepard was supposed to command the Apollo 13 mission but he and his team switched with the Apollo 14 crew. Alan Shepard was also the first American (and the second human) in space (May 5th, 1961). The first one being Juri Gagarin (April 12, 1961). So I am all for April 11th being Shepard's birthdate since there are just too many references to an actual important event and a real 'Commander' Shepard in our time. J4N3 M3 19:39, September 22, 2010 (UTC) :That is a good set of references but we need canon evidence to say for certain. April 11 however does seem to have quite a number of things connected it related to Space travel, but again we need some form of canon proof to say for certain. Dev confirmation would be nice also. Lancer1289 19:49, September 22, 2010 (UTC) :The reason we were looking for this was that someone said, the Devs had said that the date was actually referring to something in history. I'll try to find it.J4N3 M3 19:57, September 22, 2010 (UTC) im garethj717 i i hope he is born on november 4 becauae im born on the 17 of november :Unfotunatly we have canon information from BioWare that states Shepard was born on April 11. See the article. Lancer1289 12:37, October 19, 2010 (UTC) Pre-Service History Does anyone know if the morality bonuses still apply in ME2?Kalaong 14:05, August 26, 2010 (UTC) Addition of generic ME1 and ME2 History I find it odd that the main character of the Mass Effect story’s page only contains how the player creates their Shepard in ME1 and ME2. I realize that everyone’s game will be a little different but is it out of line to add the basic scripted events without putting the final player choices such as the liberator of Eden Prime, the prothean vision, the Ferros cipher, destruction of the Virmire facility, Ilos, etc from ME1 and work for Cerberus, Freedoms Progress, the collector ship, the Reaper corpse, etc from ME2. I mean all these things happen to all Shepards regardless of personal choice and could be written to not give away the choices (or spoiler warning could be placed to include the paragon/renegade choices). I figured I’d ask before going to work on it as it would take some time to write and I don’t want to waste my time if it’s just going to be deleted.—The preceding unsigned comment was added by . :I think that's a fantastic idea, personally. -- Dammej (talk) 15:55, August 29, 2010 (UTC) ::Hmm that is a tricky subject and to be honest for it to be included there would have to be a write up somewhere first, and not in the article or on this talk page. A sandbox writeup perhaps would be a good idea first. Again this would be a trick subject and I don't know Spart's opinion here, nor can I predict it on this subject, but I would want to see a write up first in a sandbox before it gets added. Lancer1289 16:22, August 29, 2010 (UTC) :::How about this, I’ll spend a few days doing a rework of the page adding the history and when I’m done I’ll post it in a blog or something (with the link to it posted here) and it can be evaluated from there. Nothing will be changed here and It will allow others to voice their opinion on the manner. Sound like a deal? NightsKnight 16:35, August 29, 2010 (UTC) ::::That probably sounds like the best way to go for now. Still, this will be tricky. Lancer1289 16:38, August 29, 2010 (UTC) :::::You should do it in a sandbox, though, as Lancer said. I can't see any reason to use a blog for something of this nature. SpartHawg948 21:29, August 29, 2010 (UTC) More default info Well, looks like LOTSB revealed a little more of the 'default' info for a new to ME2 Shepard (as opposed to one imported from the first game). In a bit of dialogue with Tela Vasir, Shep will attempt to spook Vasir by pointing out that the Commander let the Destiny Ascension get destroyed w/ the Council onboard (which is nothing new), and that the Commander personally killed the last rachni queen. So... looks like if you don't import a character from the first game, you probably won't be seeing the rachni in the third. Man, the default Shepard is ruthless... :P SpartHawg948 02:36, September 9, 2010 (UTC) :Wow ruthless indeed. Lancer1289 02:40, September 9, 2010 (UTC) ::And this is why i truly hate Renegades.... Shadowhawk27 23:48, September 25, 2010 (UTC) Indeed. Some people can't handle the sheer awesomeness, and need to take the nice and safe route. I, on the other hand, like going that route. It's not quite as fun as it is in other games like KOTOR/KOTOR II and Fable, but still. Renegade all the way! :) SpartHawg948 23:51, September 25, 2010 (UTC) ::(shakes head) when you put it that way, it makes me hate it alot more. Paragons are way﻿ better then Renegades and that is the truth and nothing else. Anybody can start a fight.﻿ It takes a much better person to talk everyone out of it. They get﻿ a better reputation and a far better legacy, that's for sure. Shadowhawk27 00:20, September 26, 2010 (UTC) No, it isn't the truth. It's your opinion. Nothing but. You're right, anyone can start a fight. And anyone can talk their way out of one. Many times, when dealing with nasty people, starting the fight is the better alternative. Just ask one of those "great Paragons of world history", Neville Chamberlain. Either way, stating that one or the other is "better" is pure fluff and opinion. And it doesn't really have a place on a talk page about the Commander Shepard article. SpartHawg948 00:32, September 26, 2010 (UTC) I am more a pragmatist person. I let Destiny Ascension get destroyed (thus ensuring humanity's ascendancy), but I saved the rachni queen (compassion? or maybe a desire to have a powerful ally?). Guess what I did at the Collector Base :) — Pepoluan 11:19, September 29, 2010 (UTC) Is Shepard a reference to Jesus? Since there's alot of bibical references in Mass Effect. (Legion, Sovereign, Lazarus etc.) Could Shepard's story as a whole be a reference to Jesus Christ. Shepard has 12 squadmates in ME2, gets killed and is resurrected in ME2, and is called "Shepard" who is the Shepherd of humanity against the Reapers, like the bible says Jesus was supposedly the Shepherd of humanity. along with the default name being John. 12 September, 2010. :I'm pretty sure that this came up before and, being a Roman Catholic myself, I really don't see the connection. Don't forget there were only 10 initial squad members in ME2 and two were added with DLC. Also note that Shepard can only recruit six squad members in ME, so what about that? So I’d have to call that a big stretch. Also the Shepard being the Shepherd of humanity is also a bit of a stretch, actually kind of a big one. And how does the default name play a part in this? That is the biggest question I have as I can't even see how that plays a part. Lancer1289 16:49, September 12, 2010 (UTC) Pretty sure Jesus didn't go around killing people and wiping out species. Just throwing that out there. So let's see here: It's true that Shepard has a max of 12 squad members, but there are actually 13 possible permanent squad members, plus two temporary squad members. Don't remember there being 15 apostles. Next, Shepard is spelled similarly to, but not the same as, Shepherd. I'll admit, it's plausible, but not plausible enough on its own to support it. And the default name is John. So? Pretty sure Jesus Christ's name was Jesus, not John. And John is a very common name. Word on the street is that, when they can't ID a man, they call him John. John Doe, anyone? And then there's the bit about even Paragon Shepard killing lots and lots and lots and lots of people. Wouldn't it be more appropriate for someone who is a Jesus reference try to save those people, rather than shooting them in the face, or crushing them with biotics? The evidence for this theory is circumstantial at best, and I just don't see it. SpartHawg948 19:35, September 12, 2010 (UTC) :Reference to Jesus? More like a reference to Ares (the ancient god of war) than Jesus. Thats really nonsense.SoulRipper 19:49, September 12, 2010 (UTC) ::Jesus always said "Turn the Other Cheek", and I'm pretty sure that Shepard returns fire when people start shooting back. I figured I'd start with what was stated, but I figured that someone would bring up the killing before long. Overall it's a huge stretch. Lancer1289 19:58, September 12, 2010 (UTC) :I think he means the fact that Jesus could lead people based on his actions, just as Shepard can lead anyone as Miranda said, "through hell and back". But I do think this accusation is kinda a stretch. MEffect Fan 20:15, September 12, 2010 (UTC) ::Yeah I got that too, but I completely agree, that is probably the biggest stretch. There are plenty of leaders in history, scifi, and everywhere. Stretch indeed. Lancer1289 20:21, September 12, 2010 (UTC) :If not Jesus (I agree that he's not a J-man reference) then how about a certain amount of messianic qualities; returning from the dead, saving mankind (and beyond)? 01:46, September 13, 2010 (UTC) Well... saving mankind is an extremely common theme in sci-fi to begin with (about as common, if not more so, as robots and aliens), so I wouldn't count that as messianic, nor would I really consider Shepard being brought back to life via man-made technological means particularly messianic. SpartHawg948 01:49, September 13, 2010 (UTC) :Indeed, common and circumstances of the resurrection are completely different from what is described in the Bible. Lancer1289 01:51, September 13, 2010 (UTC) ::Didn't mention the Bible, just playing Devil's (Reapers'?) Advocate. I think Shepard is just...Shepard. 01:53, September 13, 2010 (UTC) You didn't mention the Bible, but you did inquire as to whether or not Shepard showed messianic qualities. Messianic is defined as "of or relating to a messiah", and messiah in turn is defined as "the expected king and deliverer of the Jews" and/or "Jesus". And Jesus quite obviously ties directly into the Bible. So, by extension, the case could easily be made that by using the term messianic, you were referencing the Bible, knowingly or otherwise. SpartHawg948 01:57, September 13, 2010 (UTC) ::What a very narrow definition you looked up. Thank Merriam Webster. It's their definition. I didn't cherry pick it or anything. Additionally, is there another messiah who came back from the dead that I'm not aware of? There must be if coming back from the dead is to be taken as a messianic quality without tacitly referencing the Bible. SpartHawg948 02:00, September 13, 2010 (UTC) Ok...There are TOO MANY people who have returned from the dead. Why would Shepard be a reference to Jesus and not a reference to Lucio Fulci's zombies? Also Asclepius, Achilles and Heracles where brought back from the dead. Why would Shepard be a reference to Jesus and not a reference to them? Also Shepard was not resurrected like Jesus. On the other hand Cerberus defied Jesus/God and brought back Shepard (heheh just kidding). There are even MORE people who saved mankind. Why would Shepard be a reference to Jesus and not a reference to Super Man or Spider Man? 12 squadmates? Odin had 12 sons. Why would Shepard be a reference to Jesus and not a referenceto Odin? As I said earlier, that's really nonsense. SoulRipper 11:09, September 13, 2010 (UTC) Also Son Goku died and brought back from the dead (multiple times), saved mankind (multiple times). Reference? NO. SoulRipper 11:27, September 13, 2010 (UTC) Consider that Shepard's task is to stop the Reapers to save Humanity. Soverign refers to the Bible too "We are Legion" which is a reference too ""And Jesus asked him, saying, "What is thy name?" And he said, "Legion": because many devils were entered into him." Sound familiar? Reapers = Demons in that sense. Jesus fought Demons with his words to save Mankind in the Bible. Shepard fights Reapers with his guns to save Mankind. And Reapers are a reference to demons. And there's ALOT of Bible references in the game. Hell nobody has that much evidence that Shepard is a reference to Alan Shepard besides they have the same name and they both go to space yet that isn't flamed. :Because at least Commander Shepard and Alan Shepard have the same name. Some tangible, objective, non-opinion based link. No such link exists with Jesus. SpartHawg948 23:34, September 15, 2010 (UTC) Four links exist with Jesus: The name "Shepard". The resurrection. Known as "Lazarus Project" Saving mankind from the Reapers. Who refered to themselves as "We Are Legion" in ME1. 12 Squadmates in ME2. How many links to Alan Shepard are there again? Oh, a name? Interesting last I check Alan Shepard and Commander Shepard aren't the only two people in existence with the name Shepard. And how many people in the world has heard of Alan Shepard? How many people in the world has heard of Jesus? :1st: Its SHEPARD and not Shepherd. There is a BIG difference betwin those two. :2nd: Lazarus Station may be NAMED after the know Lazarus but that has nothing to do with Jesus. :3nd: Sovereing said "We are legion". Here you will see what a legion is. Thats the legion that Sovereing ment not the demon Legion. :4th: Saving mankind is the most common thing in Sci-Fi, comic books and animes. :5th: Untill the release of the the Zaeed DLC(January 28) he had 10 SqM and untill the release of the Kasumi DLC(April 6, 2010 ) he had 11 SqM. In the First game he had 6, what about that? Where is Judas? Did anyone betrayed Shepard? I don't think so. :6th and most important: If someone doesn't knows Yuri Gagarin, Valentina Tereshkova and Alan Shepard (The two first mans and the first woman in space), then what can I say...SoulRipper 20:13, September 16, 2010 (UTC) ::Shepard had more in common with Scifi than religion. I stated it earlier, but I am a Roman Catholic and I still don't see the connection. There is more connections between Shepard and scifi than Jesus. Also Lazarus could also mean the Lazarus Protocal from Red Alert 2. Still don't know what that is, but if I find a page on the EVA Database I'll post a link. Lancer1289 20:19, September 16, 2010 (UTC) (edit conflict) Hey, don't forget Morinth. AKA the 13th squad member. Oh, and Wilson, he's in your squad too. 14. And, if you have LOTSB, Liara. 15. Not 12. Also, while it's been a while since I read the story of the Resurrection, IIRC there was a trial before-hand. And Jesus was unjustly sentenced to death. And the guy who did it washed his hands of the whole thing. No analogies there. And it took 3 days, not two years, and (as far as we can tell) no machines were involved. Oh, and Jesus' big goal wasn't saving man from some mincy little demon from Gerasene. Seems like his real goal was something to do with sin... And, as had been elaborated before, the name is not a common feature here. It's not Jesus Shepard, after all. And Jesus was a shepherd, not a Shepard. SpartHawg948 20:21, September 16, 2010 (UTC) :You do remember correctly, or at least the major parts and enough for the general idea. Pilate couldn't find a reason to sentence Jesus to death so he kept asking for one. The people brought false charges against Jesus, and in all four canonical Gospels, Pilate could not find a reason to convict. So he washed his hands of the incident and placed it squarely on the head of the people who brought the charges. Jesus died to save mankind from their sins, while Shepard was killed, probably to keep them out of the way. Again there are more differences than similarities between Jesus and Shepard. Lancer1289 20:28, September 16, 2010 (UTC) ::I know. When I said that it had been a while, and if I recalled correctly, it was meant sardonically, not literally. SpartHawg948 20:31, September 16, 2010 (UTC) :::Sorry I just couldn't tell. I hate reading text sometimes. Lancer1289 20:34, September 16, 2010 (UTC) Facial codes Found this site where players can share the facial codes of their Shepards personally I usually use the default shep because my chars look realy crap, thought some were good (better than mine anyway) heres the link if any one wants to use it. http://www.masseffect2faces.com/index.php.-- 16:26, September 21, 2010 (UTC) Shepard's Melee Strength Melee damage is just as relevant as the strength of any weapon, yet I haven't found it reported anywhere on the site (of course, I may have missed it). According to game developers (see entry labeled "General Combat"), Shep's base melee strength is 125. Adding this information makes the Wiki that much more complete. This would seem relevant either in the Shepard page, the Combat (Mass Effect 2) page, or perhaps as a note to the heavy muscle weave (in the Armor upgrades page). Thoughts? AnotherRho 04:01, October 1, 2010 (UTC) :I'd say the combat page would probably be the best way to go. Articles like this are usually reserved for bio information, and for listing powers/talents/weapons/etc. As such that kind of data just wouldn't fit here. Melee is a small part of combat, or at least I don't use it that much myself so I'll put that out there. Back on topic, for right now, I'd have to say that the Combat (Mass Effect 2) article would be the best place for it. At least until something better is proposed. Lancer1289 04:24, October 1, 2010 (UTC) ::Good point about the Bio aspect of this page. I'll add it to the Combat page as a note, and if someone finds a better way to arrange things, so be it. AnotherRho 05:19, October 1, 2010 (UTC) :::Good placement, but everything can always be improved. I have expaned the section and added some more details, could probably still use some more work. A second set of eyes is never a bad idea. Lancer1289 14:20, October 1, 2010 (UTC) Vanderloo I really think the referance to Vanderloo should be removed until we can actually link to a website that has a picture of him... without it it sounds random. It is a bit random, nevertheless... -- 23:00, October 1, 2010 (UTC) :So the fact that we link to his Wikipedia page, which in turn links to a page with a picture of him... doesn't cut it? Odd... SpartHawg948 23:09, October 1, 2010 (UTC) ::It was hard to find on the page. Bringing that up, who put that on? He looks nothing like Vanderloo. Did some developer tell you that? Or is it random guessing? -- 00:26, October 2, 2010 (UTC) :No, it's definitely not random guessing. And while Vanderloo in that one picture may not look too much like Shepard, I can assure you it's not because Vanderloo doesn't resemble him, it's more a fault of the picture. Perhaps these pictures will serve as better examples. As for random guessing, I can assure you, nothing could be farther from the truth. Don't believe me? Then listen to what the Art Director for Mass Effect has to say 3:30 into this video. SpartHawg948 00:36, October 2, 2010 (UTC) ::Perhaps the most relevant pic is this. Prismvg 07:13, October 2, 2010 (UTC) :::How come the male shep gets the Mark Vanderloo look, while his female counterpart does not? I mean Bioware manage to get two adult models Alexandra "Alleykatze" Stein and Victoria (a.k.a. Victorria) Johnson looks for their Dragon Age charictors Leliana and Morrigan so why didn't they do the same for the Female Shep?. Shadowhawk27 23:00, October 1, 2010 (UTC) ::::I know it's not what you meant, but I was thoroughly amused when I read "How come the male shep gets the Mark Vanderloo look, while his female counterpart does not?" - picturing a femshep based on Vanderloo made me snort my coffee. Ev0lve 14:41, October 4, 2010 (UTC) :::::This tell me that Bioware is full of Cheapskates, cause the femshep is just a random nobody... I mean They flew in Mark Vanderloo, scanned his head and used it as a default Male Shep but can't do the same with the Female shep? What a rip-off!!!Shadowhawk27 21:56, October 4, 2010 (UTC) ::::::Sure they are... as they pretty clearly state in the video I provided, the only reason they did all that for Vanderloo was so that they could have a good-looking Shepard for the print and tv ads and the pre-release videos and all that. It has nothing to do with being cheap, or not being "fair" to female Shepard fans, and everything to do with marketing their product. SpartHawg948 21:59, October 4, 2010 (UTC) :::::::Well lucky for us Players, this website solves our problem for our Fem-Shep :D http://www.masseffect2faces.com/ Shadowhawk27 22:04, October 4, 2010 (UTC) ::::::Never used it. I personally thought it was BioWare who solved our problem for us by allowing us to decide what gender Shepard is and what he or she looks like, as opposed to a site that allows you to copy what other people decided their Shepard would be. SpartHawg948 22:16, October 4, 2010 (UTC) :::::This is what you're actually looking for: FemSheploo Ev0lve 22:18, October 4, 2010 (UTC) ::::::Indeed! :P SpartHawg948 22:20, October 4, 2010 (UTC) :::::::EWW!! No that's just wrong... I prefer that site that allows us to use the faces for our Fem Shep like Sigourney Weaver, Jessica Alba, or even Claudia Black herself so there. Shadowhawk27 23:29, October 4, 2010 (UTC) "killed" vs. "murdered" In regards to: "The Ruthless character sent 3/4ths of his/her unit to its death and murdered surrendering batarians on Torfan." Just saw this edit pop up, and I'd actually be inclined to change it to "killed," as well. Murder is currently defined as the unlawful premeditated killing of one human being by another. While one might assume that the word has expanded to encompass other sentient races in the ME universe, it is just that: an assumption. Using "killed" would be more precise, and allow people to draw their own moral conclusions. Ev0lve 13:17, October 4, 2010 (UTC) :I may be wrong, but I believe that's an in-game description. Prismvg 13:20, October 4, 2010 (UTC) ::If that's the case, then that's how it should be. I'll check it out - from Spart's response to the edit, it seemed like an addition. Ev0lve 13:25, October 4, 2010 (UTC) :::Yeah, I'm wrong. The part with the batarians isn't mentioned when constructing the profile. "Murdered" does sound a bit off, but "killed" lacks some emphasis. Prismvg 13:29, October 4, 2010 (UTC) ::::Well, I'm not sure a ruthless Shepard would see it as "murder," either. Whether or not it was justifiable is a moral and legal decision. Since morality is an opinion and we don't know the legal circumstances, I think it's pretty clear that "killed" is a far more accurate representation. Ev0lve 13:41, October 4, 2010 (UTC) :::::Given the nature of the situation, murdered is far more accurate. If someone is surrendering, then if you kill them, it is murder because they surrendered. The killing of prisoners of war, POWs, or killing those who are surrendering, is seen as murder. Even then, I have to say that, given the circumstances, murder is far more accurate, which is why both Spart and myself have revered edtis on this matter. Lancer1289 13:46, October 4, 2010 (UTC) I understand your point of view, but killing in cold blood is not the definition of murder. Given the nature of the situation, as you say, it would be considered murder if it happened in present times involving humans. However, we're talking about an instance in a fictional society and culture where we do not know either the legal or cultural ramifications of Shepard's actions. While it is obviously "ruthless," anything beyond that is an assumption. Although I didn't initially edit this article, based on what we (don't) know and the policy for speculation, murder is a wildly inaccurate term. While this is just terminology, I feel that accuracy is important. This may help: "—Synonyms 1. slaughter, massacre, butcher; hang, electrocute, behead, guillotine, strangle, garrote; assassinate. Kill, execute, murder all mean to deprive of life. KILL is the general word, with no implication of the manner of killing, the agent or cause, or the nature of what is killed (whether human being, animal, or plant): to kill a person. EXECUTE is used with reference to the putting to death of one in accordance with a legal sentence, no matter what the means are: to execute a criminal. MURDER is used of killing a human being unlawfully: He murdered him for his money." Ev0lve 14:00, October 4, 2010 (UTC) :(edit conflict)However, murder is still more accurate because of the situation. Given human terms, it is more accurate in the current wording, and we haven't heard anything else to contradict that. Spart said it best yesterday, "killed surrendering combatants... i.e. "murdered" them." Murder is a much more accurate term to describe what happened based on the knowledge we have, and the context it is in, and changing it also changes the context of the matter, and that is much more important in this circumstance. Lancer1289 14:16, October 4, 2010 (UTC) :Now to address what I was edit conflicted on, that doesn't help as again the context of the matter is that he killed surrendering combatants, i.e. murdered them under human laws. And since this is analyzed from a human point of view, and based on current human laws, it is murder. Murder, don't forget was also used when Kolyat tried to kill Talid, Bailey called it "attempted murder" so I think the definition of murder would case evolved to one person killing another person. Under human laws, It would be murder, not killing, because they were surrendering combatants. Murder is much more accurate both in context and in the terms that it is used. Killed is less accurate given the context of the matter. Lancer1289 14:23, October 4, 2010 (UTC) ::You make an excellent point with Bailey's comment. However, murder refers to an unlawful act, and there is no reason to assume that C-Sec's laws on the Citadel apply to the situation Shepard was in on Torfan. While it's a somewhat logical assumption, any assumption is not the most accurate representation of the facts. That said, in case I'm misrepresenting myself, I am in complete agreement that simply changing it to "killed" doesn't fully convey enough meaning. Perhaps we could use a more accurate synonym and add a reference to this earning him the name "the Butcher of Torfan." Ev0lve 14:36, October 4, 2010 (UTC) :::And I still see no reason to change it. The Assumption in this case has backup in that the Alliance seems to have laws that follow most of the international treaties today. Under the Geneva Conventions, the killing of POWs and the killing of Surrendering combatants, is classified as Murder, not anything else. There are multiple things I can pull from history about this. There are also many other assumptions on this site, and all of them have backup as well. In this case Murder is more accurate and I see no reason to change the wording that both has backup, and in context, as more accurate to something that doesn't convey the meaning and will make the wording more confusing. Murder is more accurate. Also just food for thought, since this is written from a human perspective, while still in-universe, murder would also be more accurate than killed, and modification would make it more confusing and less accurate. Lancer1289 14:51, October 4, 2010 (UTC) ::::The English language is confusing enough, sure, but I would have thought that an encyclopedic source would want to be precise. The word murder is not used correctly here, and I fail to see how using a more accurate synonym would distort the context. An equally-colorful, emotional verb could be used to draw the same reaction while avoiding the misuse of the word in question. Simply, put, this is how I see it: ::::Reasons to change: Literary correctness. ::::Reasons not to change: It's a commonly misused word and people will get the idea clearly. Ev0lve 15:01, October 4, 2010 (UTC) :::::And how is murder a commonly misused word? Killed =/= murder, and in this context it doesn’t come even close. How is killed a more accurate synonym when it doesn't convey what actually happened. Killing of surrendering combatants = murder, and replacing the word with something less accurate, takes killing and trying to make it fit into this context is like trying to make a square peg fit into a round hole, it doesn't work. Murdered is a much more accurate way of conveying what actually happened in this circumstance, and yes we are an encyclopedic source, and yes we are precise, hence why murder is used. I can see in no way, shape, or form does killed = murder in this context, with this meaning, and with the same way of conveying the information. What happened was murder, plain and simple, and I see no reason to change it because it is used correctly. Lancer1289 16:24, October 4, 2010 (UTC) "Killed =/= murder" is exactly my point. Killed is one of the most general terms, while murder is very specific. And that is precisely how it is misused - perhaps in large part due to its prevalence in televised fiction. Murder in particular is the unlawful killing of a human being, with emphasis both on unlawful and human. We have absolutely no information pertaining to the lawfulness of Shepard's actions, even if we assume that "human being" has been expanded to encompass all sentient life. Also, I'm not sure why you seem fixated on "killed" - although it was the header at the top of this discussion, just a few lines up I stated: "That said, in case I'm misrepresenting myself, I am in complete agreement that simply changing it to "killed" doesn't fully convey enough meaning." You speak of square pegs in round holes; I would contest that using the word murder to describe Shepard's actions would be the square peg, using killed would be a loose-fitting round peg, and something entirely different would be a nice snug fit. It is purely untrue that "Killing of surrendering combatants = murder," even today. Like you said, it is in the Geneva Conventions, but there are countries which do not acknowledge that as law. Also, it has been legal in the past, and may yet be legal in the future. This isn't my personal opinion, but it has as much proof as any other assumption. As a sidenote, I appreciate and respect that you're able to discuss this without putting your hands over your ears/eyes and asserting that your way is right. As such, I hope that you don't take any of this as a personal affront. And, sorry about the length - hope you like reading. Ev0lve 16:50, October 4, 2010 (UTC) :Murder today is defined as one human killing another, yes. However, then why would Captain Bailey, a person working for the Galactic Government, use the term "attempted murder" when describing how a drell almost killed a turian. Last time I checked, a drell nor a turian are human. So why wouldn't he say something else, like attempted manslaughter, or attempted killing? Murder was chosen for a reason, because it the legal definition of what took place, so again I fail to see how murder isn't accurate in this case because that is exactly what happened, the murder of surrendering, and probably unarmed combatants. :As to the Geneva Conventions, note that 194 countries signed the articles from the fourth Geneva Convention, which included the provisions and treaties from the previous three. However in 1993 the UN Security Council adopted a report from the UN Secretary-General that because the overwhelming majority of countries had signed the Conventions, they passed into international law, binding all non-signers to the conventions whenever they engage in armed conflict. Also note that all 15 members of the Security Council at the time had signed the conventions, and all five of the permanent voting members, i.e. the US, UK, France, China, and Russia didn't veto it, which was well within their power. :Also how it is untrue that the killing of surrendering combatants, i.e. at that point Prisoners of War, is murder. Because any mistreatment of POWs is considered a war crime, and killing is considered murder. :I didn't miss you statement that you quoted above, however I'm "fixated" on it because that is what you want to replace murder with, and to doesn't convey the meaning, and it is also less accurate than murder. You also have to consider the context it is in, and in context it is murder. Also something you have to consider is that while in a fictional universe, it, like all sci-fi universes, are based, in whole or part, on the world at the time. Star Trek evolved over time, and still is, based on what happened in the real world. Murder is the more accurate term here, killed doesn’t convey the same meaning, and a reword would also not convey the meaning and would alter the article says, which is what happened. I’m sure Spart will say more on this later. Lancer1289 17:24, October 4, 2010 (UTC) ::"I'm "fixated" on it because that is what you want to replace murder with" - that's my point... it isn't the word I want to replace murder with. Not sure how to make it any clearer than I have. ::There are a number of opponents to universal jurisdiction in international law, such as Henry Kissinger. Despite it being the "official" system at present, it is by no means clear-cut. ::As to how it is untrue that the killing of surrendering combatants is murder - it's a matter of circumstance and perspective. There have been and are cultures in which such actions would be not only accepted, but the societal norm. The question of lawfulness isn't something we can know. ::I addressed the comment from Captain Bailey already, stating that even if the definition was expanded to encompass non-humans there is still no reason to assume that because such an act was illegal on the Citadel as judged by C-Sec, there is nothing to say that C-Sec's laws apply to Shepard's situation at Torfan. Would you say it's just as obvious that Saren "murdered" Nihlus? That would be even more plausible to me, yet that article uses "killed." Ev0lve 17:41, October 4, 2010 (UTC) Just to respond here: the statement that "As to how it is untrue that the killing of surrendering combatants is murder - it's a matter of circumstance and perspective. There have been and are cultures in which such actions would be not only accepted, but the societal norm. The question of lawfulness isn't something we can know." is bogus. This isn't some alien culture we're talking about here. Commander Shepard is a human serving in the Alliance military. The Alliance military is itself the descendant of the current-day militaries of a number of nations. And, per international law such the Law of Armed Conflict and the Geneva Conventions, killing a combatant who is attempting to surrender is murder. Not only murder, but a war crime. This is the case not just under international law, but under the national laws of most nations, including the United States. SpartHawg948 18:28, October 4, 2010 (UTC) :Thanks for joining in. I'm not sure how you can call it bogus - the statement is factual, even after what you said. While I agree that Alliance military law is the direct descendant of current-day international relations, I'm not sure if that's compelling enough to rule out the chance that Shepard killing surrendering combatants in his encounter was illegal. In-game, I don't think Captain Anderson and Admiral Hackett would simply have called it "doing whatever it takes to get the job done" if they considered it a war crime. I'm not sure how it would alter the context or meaning of the comment if it were changed to something along the lines of: "and slaughtered surrendering batarians on Torfan, earning him the name 'the Butcher of Torfan'." This would remove any possible speculation as to the legality of his actions (regardless of how strong you feel the backing is, it is still speculation) without taking anything away from the brutality or ruthlessness of his actions. Ev0lve 18:40, October 4, 2010 (UTC) Yeah, it's still what I call bogus. After all, my point was that in pretty much all of the militaries that united to form the Alliance military, shooting surrendering combatants is murder. My point had nothing to do with whether Alliance military law is the direct descendant of "current-day international relations". Nor do Anderson and Hackett's comments mean jack in the context of the legality of Shepard's actions. Remember, the victor rarely (if ever) gets charged with war crimes, even if they know at the time that their actions constitute war crimes. Just look at how many Allied Commanders and soldiers were charged with war crimes after WWII. I don't recall "Bomber Harris" or "Bombs Away LeMay" being charged with war crimes, though LeMay himself even admitted that he fully expected to be charged with them should the U.S. lose WWII. As for changing it to "slaughter", I fail to see how that would be any less speculative. After all, slaughter isn't a direct synonym for kill. It carries added connotations of brutality and/or numbers, which we can't back with in-game material, IIRC, so that would seem to be speculation too, would it not? SpartHawg948 18:56, October 4, 2010 (UTC) :As for the war crimes, valid point, especially since they'd be even more likely to overlook things like that if they're looking for the sole savior of humanity. I'd disagree with those connotations on slaughter, though - the word is most frequently associated with killing livestock, typically in a humane fashion which on small farms is performed on individual animals rather than en masse. In any case, it was just a suggestion of a possible synonym that carries an emotional vibe (for lack of a better term), without the legal speculation. Ev0lve 19:04, October 4, 2010 (UTC) But we aren't talking livestock here, we're talking sentient (or sapient, whichever you prefer) beings. In this case, using the livestock definitions instead of the definitions that apply to sentient beings is just plain wrong. Batarian or no, they aren't farm animals! And the definitions of slaughter that apply to people are as follows: "the brutal or violent killing of a person.", "the killing of great numbers of people or animals indiscriminately; carnage: the slaughter of war.", "to kill in a brutal or violent manner.", and "to slay in great numbers; massacre." All of these, as mentioned, have added connotations that are themselves speculative. So, unless we want to take the Cerberus mindset that aliens are somehow less than, and therefor use the livestock definition, (which is "the killing or butchering of cattle, sheep, etc., esp. for food."), I can't see slaughtered being a viable alternative. SpartHawg948 19:10, October 4, 2010 (UTC) :Again, just the first possibility off the top of my head. The question is, if there were an acceptable synonym, would you be willing to change it? If so, play devil's advocate with me and throw in a few ideas of your own. If not, I'd be a little disappointed - being opinionated is an excellent quality, being closeminded among the worst. While I'm sure there is no magical, perfect word that fits this occasion like glitter on a unicorn, I'm sure with the versatility of the English language we can come up with something more accurate then murder and more flavored than kill. :Edit: One addition to the use of "slaughter" - aside from "butcher" itself, wouldn't that be the closest description inferred from the name the Butcher of Torfan? Ev0lve 19:34, October 4, 2010 (UTC) ::Wow I step out for lessons, and look what I miss. Thanks Spart for correcting me in a few places, but I also have to agree with his point. I still ne no reason to change it because it is accurate, thanks to Spart point out thinks I missed. I can't see another word that would fit and still convey the information correctly. Shepard slaughtered surrendering combatants, a war crime, and illegal killing, a.k.a murder. I can't see a rewording or another word that can still covey that message, because it works now and is accurate. Lancer1289 19:53, October 4, 2010 (UTC) :::And I still see nothing compelling that he committed a war crime, illegal killing, and thus murder. Ah well, I have to get ready for class this afternoon - I'll defer to your judgment in this case. Thanks for the discussion, though, it's one of the more pleasurable activities in life when done right! I'll be sure to bother you gents later on some other issue. Ev0lve 19:59, October 4, 2010 (UTC) Back! Ah, how I do so love the start of the new fiscal year. When government slows down from its normal crawl to a near-standstill. I must again point out that we do have compelling evidence that Shep did commit an illegal killing. I mean, look at how your human companions react throughout the games whenever you kill an enemy who has surrendered. Take Fist, for example. This would seem to indicate that the revulsion we (generally) feel towards killing a helpless foe in cold blood still exists. And again, we do know that the Systems Alliance military is directly descended from the armed forces of today (Jon Grissom, for example, was a United States Marine), and in pretty much every contemporary military, killing an enemy who is attempting to surrender is a crime. And we do know that the Systems Alliance exists as the result of a multi-lateral international agreement between a number of Earth nations, and as has been pointed out, killing an enemy attempting to surrender is murder under any of a number of international laws, accords, treaties, resolutions, etc. SpartHawg948 21:14, October 4, 2010 (UTC) :I'm willing to accept that, and in all likelihood that is indeed the case. I just would have been more comfortable with "Shepard killed the surrendering batarians in cold blood, earning him the name "the Butcher of Torfan." But, I concede - the evidence is indeed there to support your view. Again, I do love a well-voiced discussion (arguments are especially fun, though this doesn't qualify). I'll be lurking! Ev0lve 21:22, October 4, 2010 (UTC) ::If killing these surrendering batarians (assuming they were members of a uniformed military, and not unlawful combatants) was a war crime, do we know why Shepard was not charged or convicted (or discharged from the military) for the crime? --AnotherRho 20:29, October 7, 2010 (UTC) :::Who knows, probably because of the situation at the time, or maybe there are other reasons, can't say for sure. There are many reasons that I can think of. Lancer1289 20:30, October 7, 2010 (UTC) The most obvious and likely being that it wasn't a crime. Hah. But I'm not getting into this again... Ev0lve 20:33, October 7, 2010 (UTC) :(edit conflict) From what Spart said (above), I guess one could suggest: because the Alliance won (of course, for all we know in this hypothetical future, Shepard's actions weren't considered illegal by the Alliance). That said, as for its being against the likes of the Geneva Convention, it merits mention that the combatants on Torfan would not be considered members of a legitimate military, and would therefore be unlawful combatants. --AnotherRho 20:38, October 7, 2010 (UTC) ::Whom it is still a crime to kill once they have laid down their arms and are attempting to surrender. The laws (national and international) are pretty much all in agreement on that one point: If someone was fighting you but then throws down their arms and attempts to surrender, it is a crime to kill them. It doesn't matter if they are or aren't members of a "legitimate military". That distinction only matters really when discussing what to do with them after they are in your custody. And again, as you point out, there is pretty much no precedent whatsoever for a victorious nation prosecuting members of its own military for war crimes. That's why Karl Doenitz was tried for war crimes but Chester Nimitz wasn't. Ditto for Herman Goering, but not Sir Arthur Harris. SpartHawg948 23:02, October 7, 2010 (UTC) Shepard's romantic partner from EM1 in two years. I just want to throw this out there. Is it just me or is it entirely possible that Ashley Williams or Liara T'Soni could have had Shepard's child in between the destruction of the Normandy and Shepard's resurrection. This being a male Shepard with Ashley and either/or with Liara. It wouldn't make any sense though for a female Shepard to have a child with Kaidan Alenko as she would have been carrying said child when she died and the child would have died with her. The child would have had to have been conceived before the Normandy was destroyed but Shepard did sleep with the romantic partner before heading to Ilos. --Tripodssj6 18:48, November 6, 2010 (UTC) :I don't think Ashley would ever have Shep's child - first of all, she can die, too, and second, her role as a love interest is, basically, that of Kaidan's counterpart, basically, that would be unfair for FemShep romancing Kaidan; Liara having Shep's child is more possible, because 1)she can't die, 2)she is a possible partner for both Male and Female Shepard, 3)it is technically possible. Maybe in one of ME3 possible endings you will have an opportunity to start a family with her, but I don't think she *already* has Shep's child. She doesn't act that way, it would surface at some point, in LotSB for example. --Kiadony 19:03, November 6, 2010 (UTC) ::Just a quick question, if Ashley sleeps with Shepard before Ilos, when can she die exactly? As to the question, I do think that is is possible, but highly unlikely. Lancer1289 19:09, November 6, 2010 (UTC) I mean that she can die at all, like all other squadmates, while Liara can't. Liara is the most logical choice for the theoretical ME3 ending in which Shep gets a family, because that would be fair for Sheps of both genders. What if in LotSB she actually gives you a hint on what possible romance outcomes you will get in ME3? --Kiadony 07:48, November 7, 2010 (UTC) :Ah now I see what you mean. Hmm that is something to consider. I guess we'll have to wait and see but I think, personally, Shepard will end up with whoever you choose wither it be form ME, ME2, or even ME3. BioWare wouldn't cheat us out of another Paramour achievement when they have it in the first two games. Still ME3 will be interesting to see where these romances end up. Not everything has to end in a logical conclusion. It's scifi, the logic book sometimes goes flying out the window. Lancer1289 07:55, November 7, 2010 (UTC) Well, I hope Shepard will end up with a chosen partner, but perhaps Liara will be the only one who'll possibly have children. As to LotSB hinting, I also mean when Liara asks Shepard about his/her ME2 love interests. Like, peace for Garrus, homeworld for Tali... But, yeah, you're right about logic. With it, it would make sense for them to write an inevitable death for one possible female ME2 love interest to balance out Thane, but that would be the silliest death possible. --Kiadony 08:17, November 7, 2010 (UTC) Lancer1289 makes a valid point, that there was no intimate enough moment between Shepard's love interest and the Commander until after Virmire that could have conceived a child. Also I never said that a female Shepard couldn't have Kaidan's child but that it would kind of be messed up if they made it that way since Shepard dies not long after. With Ashley it could be explained that she had "the baby" and had to leave it in the care of her mother while she was on active service and with all that she was dealing with and he uncertainty about Shepard ailing with Cerberus she may have decided not to tell him. With Liara it is a similar situation, she could very well raise a child while working for the Shadow Broker and after LotSB she had her hands full taking over the operation. --Tripodssj6 19:11, November 8, 2010 (UTC) Shepard's Accent Given that both voice actors for Shepard (Meer and Hale) are Canadian, it's safe to assume that Shepard speaks with a Canadian accent... my previous edit to the main page's trivia section is the reason for me to elaborate on this in the talk page. Being a Canadian myself, a Torontonian to be exact, I could recognize the accent when certain words were spoken... notably words such as "out" and "about" have an elongnated pronunciation when the "o" is pronounced in a Canadian accent. But both actors are born in different parts of the country: Meer's from Alberta... not sure what Canadian dialect is spoken there, but Hale, who's from Newfoundland, has a hint of that dialect, in that words are pronounced more mildly and flatter sounding than Meer. Just my opinion... agree? Disagree? H-Man Havoc 00:01, November 8, 2010 (UTC) :Sounds to me like it could be Canadian, but then, coming from the Midwest, it also sounds pretty similar to a Minnesota accent or a Yooper accent. Given the subjectivity of this topic, I'd have to disagree, especially since (given what we know about the ME Universe, specifically thanks to the prologue of Revelation) accents seem to have no real bearing on place of origin or ethnicity in Mass Effect. SpartHawg948 11:26, December 9, 2010 (UTC) Limp? Has anyone else noticed that Shepard walks with a rather pronounced limp? Does this merit comment, or do we just take it as part and parcel of the premature Cerberus resurrection? 09:50, December 9, 2010 (UTC) :Never noticed a limp. Certainly haven't noticed any such thing during any of the numerous scenes depicting the Commander running, jumping, etc. SpartHawg948 11:21, December 9, 2010 (UTC)